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Julien MSC

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PostSubject: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:00 am

I invite all msc players to read my other topic about the metagame.

Please reply here.

I want this to stay respectful.
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coheed&cambria

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PostSubject: Re: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:55 am

batman says it all:

"BAtman

^ true that was the part i really didn't agree with boo deking being a part of the meta game.

If that was true then i would have to be ready constantly for someone to boo deke on me and often if you are to play decent players on ranked they will boo deke on me and i will not be ready for it. The reason why i dont like that is not im whining about more work to guard its that it basically gives boo a character that has been called the most overpowered character in the game time and time again even more power.

It would give me almost no reason to even bother using toad. Also it makes 3 boo teams even more useful.

Although im not saying boo dekes should or ever will be banned but if u do it i will call u a ***** and will do my best to avoid playing u and make u try to make ur life miserable.

O yea and this is coming from a former boo deke spammer lol"



this is just such a worthless debate to me, honestly. boo deking has no place in the game, the more "on the fence" tactics, if you will, that are allowed, the sloppier the game becomes. i COULD block a boo deke. but why should i expect such a cheap tactic to be used on me, something that can be done at any time, something that takes no skill, something that can no longer be blocked at a certain point. boo deking is so easy, that if it were legal, i would use 3 boos and i would boo deke on you for a minimum of 5 goals a game. AND THAT GOES FOR EVERY PLAYER AND EVERY "ON THE FENCE" TACTIC. if i can tele, insta, boo deke, home spam, crystal smash, etc, im going to. and by allowing those kinds of goals you deteriorate the true metagame. for every boo deke that was scored could have been a weel set up play, a passing sequence, a deke into self pass, etc. you get what im saying.

but as you mention it isnt necessarily game breaking. it isnt a glitch. its in the game. and if you wanna say you can use anything in the game, then im gonna tell you to blow it out your ass, because i wont be playing that person again. guaranteed.

wanna boo deke? okay, youre not wrong, but good luck finding a game. honestly, i dont see tactics as this as having any place in a competitive community
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Julien MSC

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PostSubject: Re: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:20 am

Thank you for replying CC.

And no, I will not play you using boo dekes or the other techniques banned, because I like your website and the matches I have with everyone. Also, I respect you as a person, a great MSC player and for keeping this website up. Please keep my ass out of that Razz

But I want to make clear that I come from somewhere and that it seems to me like I will never find that place again.

The new rules contradict my idea of metagame, what i consider the ''whole pie'' Next Level Games was talking about in the email.

Quote: Like everything, players will find what they think are cheap tricks/glitches – remember when people were complaining about hammer spammers, or boo dekes? Well after the initial stage of figuring out one of the tricks and abusing it, people begin to formulate plans to counter the tricks people are using. Once people learn how to counter/defend against them they then become just a piece of the overall pie. A move that is best used when a certain circumstance presents itself. It’s the constant ebb and flow of learning and mastering a game.''

It is important for me to understand why the community has adapted rules in order for me to impose them to my opponents. Obviously, unless it is a tourney match and special rules are applied.

Naturally, in any case, I will play my friendly matches following the rules established without complaining. But I want all of my future opponents to keep in mind that they can use these tactics on me whenever they feel its going in and want to try it.

Boo dekes, Instas, Waluigi home, Dk home, teleport goals.

I have played enough high level games to accept these in the gameplay of my opponents. I will always take a loss keeping my head up, because I will always think there is a way to defend everything in MSC.

I would like to ask you if you have recently played MSC against the CPU. It is something I do regularly because it practices my shooting skills. Today, i played as daisy away, with 2 boos db against wally home 2 boos db. After a couple games, I played using daisy away.

I was interested to try to score only with boo dekes and teleports to see how the CPU would defend. I succeeded at winning both games, but I couldnt easily reach 7-0. The CPU reacts differently to mindgames than a human opponent, you already know that. So, by working hard enough to get breakaways and make the ball go in, I really felt like i deserved a goal everytime i got one. The skills needed to set up a boo deke/teleport goal were different than the ones needed to confuse a human defender with the same intention to score off a boo deke or tele.

Is the CPU perfect, hell no! But its defense improved everytime i would try abusing of a tactic. The CPU uses a techinque that is unfamiliar to a lot of people.

The techinque of walking instead of running (by not applying full pressure on the analog), has shown it can be an asset to the CPU's strategies, because of the resulting positionning of his players for defense and for future pass combo.

This technique alters the momentums for both players and can be very powerful. Some people look for similar results when doing 360 degrees before tricks, but the result on your general team's positionning is different when you do a 360 than when you just walk, because walking takes the exact amount of time you want to measure, while doing a 360 always takes the same amount of time. Sometimes, you need that extra half second.

This technique, I found, can be used very efficiently for glitch passes interception, boo dekes blocking, insta insta-countering at beginning of play (when you intercept the lob right in front of the opponent) and CS countering by tackle daisy after she performs it on goaler and before she shoot.

It is also good to use for regular shooting and tricking.

This tactic has not been very popular yet and I think starting to use it wisely would change the way you conceive the game.

It is something i would recommend you to try and judge by yourself. It requires a lot of skills, but can pay off in critical situations when timing is mastered.

This might sound like something new. But don't judge me until you try it and see how it can help you. pirat
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coheed&cambria

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PostSubject: Re: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:49 am

first off, when i say "you" i dont mean you specifically, i just mean a non first person pronoun to show the actions of someone else lol

bringing the topic of a computer pretty much nullifies the debate for 3 reasons:

1. the computer hit spams. an ai for msc does not worry about what items you have and/or are being given, and will hit you constantly, about twice as much as any player here would. of course, hit spam makes it harder for you to reach the goalie to boo deke, but there are many things that leaves the ai vulnerable to, as well.

2. computers play what i refer to as a "centralized" defense. they do so because the goal is in the center of the field, so it makes sense to guard that area, right? that makes it hard to boo deke on an opponent but leaves open basically every trick in the book. dont believe me? take the ball to your own end of the field in the corner, then run along the wall, z chipping the ball as you run. every time you catch the ball, z chip again. you will make it to the other side of the field intact without fail, barring the occasional thrown item.

3. computers do not know how to clear z-chips. again, this leaves open every trick in the book and basically eliminates a need to boo deke against a computer, even if you wanted to.

So of course, computers are more, if you will, oriented on stopping boo dekes, whereas obviously, human players are more oriented on stopping tricks. if you tried to boo deke on me, you would do so at ease, because i would be expecting a trick, of course. and even after discovering that you are willing to boo deke, i can assure you that i will not be able to stop both a boo deke and a trick. this goes for most of these tactics. if i want to block a certain cheap tactic, i have to completely eliminate all chance that i have at stopping a legitimate trick. the only way for me to prevent a goal, assuming that you will use anything in the book to score the goal, is to pray that you make a mistake. and thats all that it comes down to for me.

those kinds of goals pretty much require no skill and break the true metagame of the game by eliminating defense. the way i see it, no possession can be "stopped", only the offense can make a mistake. and if played flawlessly, the game would end 7-6 after only 7 possessions for the winning team, and whoever gets the ball first wins.

i would never expect these kinds of tactics from a player in the community. sure, we all are aware that they are going to happen on a someone regular basis from noobs on ranked, and those players are just that: noobs. i cant say that i would have any respect for a player that comes to a competitive community for the game just to use these tactics
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Julien MSC

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PostSubject: Re: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:40 am

I agree with the 3 points you stated about the CPU, but we are having a debate about defense in the metagame, not about how to win against the CPU. I know how to abuse of it with tricks in the book, I think we both know they are lacking an important defensive ability.

I talked about my games with the CPU because i wanted to measure how cheap the tactics really are and find out if the CPU had an alternative tactic to offer to counter them.

I suggested walking technique, because it is not something I find recurrent in online players gameplay and I think it can be key to defend a lot of plays including the tactics removed from the official metagame of Mscbay to form ''new metagame'' currently played on here.

I also use ''you'' impersonally Wink

Contrary to standing and running, walking lets you rotate and move your player in any direction at any moment without being penalized with a delay if you change direction drastically. So It gives you a larger interception range in because of the ‘’lighter weight of every steps’’. Standing stops the pace of your player for a moment, while walking slows it down how much you want, but still keeps your player able to move fluidly and to react to an unpredicted event.

I wanted you (personnal you) to try to use the walking technique in your gameplay and give me a feedback because it leads my debate to an important point, which is quick decision making, and often guessing.

You said: If you tried to boo deke on me, you would do so at ease, because i would be expecting a trick, of course. and even after discovering that you are willing to boo deke, i can assure you that i will not be able to stop both a boo deke and a trick. this goes for most of these tactics. if i want to block a certain cheap tactic, i have to completely eliminate all chance that i have at stopping a legitimate trick.

I disagree with you there. I am convinced there is a way to defend all at once without compromise.

The boo deke goal is done through the goalie. It is a fact that it is done later than any other trick possible in the same offensive (self pass, serve it all of em, etc). I think it could be a bad idea to defend against an expected trick by pressing the A button thinking a moment is the good moment, because it would eliminate all chances for you to counter an alternate way of scoring by switching the character you are using if you guessed at the wrong moment.

In a similar defending position, defending behind your goalie, a smart move would be to use Z+A, or B to intercept because you can hit the button several times without switching character. This leaves you the chance to adapt to your opponent's quick decision to turn his serve it in into any other trick. If you are standing (stalling/waiting) behind your goalie, you might also have difficulty to adapt to your opponent trick variants because of the delay mentioned above.

Considering the boo deke goal is the last trick that can be tried (because it requires boo to be going through the goalie and not just close to it, like the other tricks). It means that you have to make a defensive mistake like switching character or stalling in order to fail at defending it.

Like we did in the old days, the most efficient way to defend against a mindgaming multi-trick offensive is to perform a sequence that uses the walking technique I talked above.

First: Run to the goalie square zone.

When you get there: Start walking in direction of your opponent and be ready to press Z+A or B to intercept a chip.

Finally: If a chip doesn’t happen, be ready to tackle or slide before he decides to perform and succeed a deke, a tele or a shot under Kritter’s arm. (this works for every character, even monty’s dig under the goal and toad’s jump)

Conclusion:

I think that if people started to use the possibility of walking more, they would notice how easier some setups are to defend. When practiced and mastered, like in the old metagame, it could be useful to intercept shooter’s very fast passing combos, the red ball middle court pass goal, all chips and bugsprays, Crystal Smash on goalie, teleports and even the glitch.

**Top secret** The walking technique can also be used to counter an opponent going for a chip on the wall combo pass (Master plan), because you can get the priority on the ball by changing the distance expectations of the trick maker.
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E-Ray



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PostSubject: Re: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:30 pm

A little late perhaps but I craved a good MSC discussion. Ask for this topic? I'll put my two cents in if it means anything.

I agree with Batman the most out of anyone who was arguing within that short story I just read. I do believe the Boo deke has served a good purpose in MSC allowing nobodies to actually gain some confidence. The Boo deke should be served as more of a crutch than an actually scoring tool. I have another arguement on mindgames but I'll state that after this.

The boo deke is a good crutch trick in MSC because it's so simple to use and perform with consistency that anybody could stay in a game by using it. It allows people to play longer with good players (even though they're getting PO'ed cause I know I would) and it allows them to witness better tricks and how to use them mid-game. Once a player reaches a certain level the boo deke shouldn't even cross their mind. Like TNM said, if you can boo deke you can most likely use another trick in its place.

For my other argument on why it's alright is the mind game portion. If somebody is abusing the interception technique of the Z+A buttons then a trickster will have to find some way to break that sort of defense apart. A boo deke would seem like the most logical way to do so... and it would also send a message to the other player to stop playing such a cowards defense. Don't get me wrong, playing the net is excellent defense but against a trickster that's away it's one of the most annoying things I've ever had to deal with.

I feel as if Dre from that flashback was a little too reliant on the deke and I feel as if TNM was far too harsh with it. Both made some decent points, but both were not completely right. The deke has it's place and time and should be used sparingly if possible.


It has been a while guys and I'm glad to read Ju's wise words again,
E-Ray jocolor







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Batman



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PostSubject: Re: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:54 am

btw teleports are completely legit, its like everyone wants every team to be walu/power shooter 3 boo.

instas are pretty gay but i dont think should be banned

edit: crystal smash pretty op, idk if i like it being banned tho since wally already has a monopoly on speed characters. prolly should be kept legal just for balancing purposes.

edit 2: actually nvm it should def be legal. mario and luigi special by far strongest in game and no one bitches about them. people afraid to try out mixed characters
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the-nintendo-master

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PostSubject: Re: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:26 am

Excellent debate and I read everything thoroughly.

@Ju, I agree wholeheartedly. I feel like we're on the same page in terms of competition. In regards to your 'walking' technique - it's actually a wonderful mindgame to fuck with your opponent. I know you've used it on me; initially I kept thinking you were away from the game, then I realized you were doing it on purpose to stall. Either way, just a simple change in gameplay can make a huge difference - that's the point. Moves are defendable.

I think a huge part no one discussed is the mental aspect of MSC, and most other competitive games really. As CC said, he could defend Boo dekes and the other moves, but why should he? For example, in a heated, competitive match where these rules are established, the opponent Boo dekes. But the opponent did it knowing his opponent, CC, can block it. Why was he successful? 1) It caught CC off guard (mindgame) 2) CC did not defend it well. In regards to 1), that is the mental aspect I am talking about. From the Boo deke ONWARDS, CC's mindframe will be fucked. He'll be upset and his defense will deteriorate accordingly. His game will suffer and he will probably lose unless he gains a mental edge, or talks himself into it. In regards to 2), that was what Ju was referring to about these moves in general. They ARE blockable. You have to adapt accordingly.

Back in the day, I used to hate Boo dekes, teles, and instas because they took no skill. This is 100% true. Years later I realized that I want to win when my opponents are playing at their 'best', whatever that may be. Instas can be potentially game breaking IF the opponent does not adapt. I figured out a technique to block instas 67% of the time, but there's a 33% chance of it going in, and that's HUGE [in a 7 goal match]. It's hard to block instas with Luigi and the sidekicks I have. Teles? Forget about it. Pressing ONE button after I did ALL the charging seemed annoying as hell to me. I seethed as ARBOK and other opponents Boo deked their way thru me in competitive matches.

But now we can see this all in hindsight. Now, nothing matters. Nothing is on the line. Yes, we all want to win, but we are sacrificing some gameplay to do so. Why don't we combine these techniques? There is nothing to lose! ''It makes the metagame way less predictable and keeps the defender on his toes. I mean it would REALLY force other players to get better in the game. Just imagine combining the metagames from 2007-2008 & 2009-onwards.

One problem is playing the same exact opponents. I'm sure certain players know their opponents moves and what they are going to do. It doesn't necessarily show that you are good, but that you've simply adapted to their style. By allowing the combined metagames, you can break up the monotony and shake up the dynamic.''

To quote BM: 'YOU CAN NOT BAN SOMETHING BASED ON ITS DIFFICULTY. you ban things based on balance.'


I can go into further detail if people want to keep discussing
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Batman



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PostSubject: Re: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:34 am

imo boo dekes way to strong considering how ridiculously good it is when the goalie is on top of you in tight spots. It also gives the strongest character in the game even more power.

i wouldnt mind trying it out just to mix things up tho.
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Julien MSC

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PostSubject: Re: Reactions to Julien's Topic   Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:26 pm

After reading all about this, what are the things left to argue about?

Can I consider these moves unbanned, like in the old days?

Why would'nt you reply CC? You said a long time ago (2 months) that you were working on an answer. I said that i would'nt push you to do it fast. But it seems that you forgot your answer. I think that if this argument was truly a waste of time, it must be because you have no idea of how to get past my words and still make sense. Therefore I win the argument.

But the banning and unbanning is truly up to you.

You own this website and I cannot do anything about that, I cannot take away your power. But, democraticly speaking, I am free to publish debates like this one to expose the superiority of my arguments to our community.
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