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 Bringing back an old metagame discussion

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Julien MSC


Posts : 21
Join date : 2012-04-09

PostSubject: Bringing back an old metagame discussion   Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:54 am

A discussion about the metagame has started between EEF and TNM a very long time ago when we were interested about legitimate boo dekes (or not legit). I am going to quote from GFAQS.

I invite all MSC players to react in the second topic created. Simply because this message is REALLY long and we will be able to follow up on a discussion better in the other topic.

Here is the link to the official discussion:


Debate main arguments:


I've been seeing a lot of people complain about boo dekes, but recently i've seen people say that boo deke goals should not be allowed... imo, the boo deke is difficult to block but is still balanced enough to leave metagame unscathed; i'd like to see discussion about the boo deke

The boo glitch is not what i'm referring to in this topic, but feel free to talk about it


Boo dekes are extremely easy and require little to know skill.

As far as I'm concerned, if you score a goal using this method,

1 - you have no skill. you basically revoke everything you've done prior. i dont care how good you are.

2 - you admit you're not good enough to defeat the player without them, considering how laughably-easy they are to do. you must really really scared

Also, especially with the rules today, meaning the Goals setting and not time, people could easily boo deke the appropriate number of times and win! For example, if the game is up to 7, that person could just score 7 boo deke goals and game over.


That logic is awful, what if you're GIVEN the chance by the opponent giving it to boo on a breakaway. What if in real soccer the goalkeeper blocks a shot and it rebounds to the player on an open net? Should he not score just because it's so easy? NO! You take the possibility. It's something in game originally intended which you were fairly given the opportunity for. It's the same as an interception near your end zone in football, or the opponent standing too close to the net in tennis, it's something that fairly happens in game to set you up for a chance to get points.


i agree with above poster, also parallel slam takes little skill and is better than boo dekes

i do not consider muscle memory skill


So to the above posters, you would be fine with a player who purposely set up boo dekes? Meaning the person would use items and any means necessary to pull off these boo dekes 7 times to win the game?


listen, i've mentioned this before with insta chips

Boo dekes are part of the metagame, and we need to accept that; you cant just ban something because its good; boo glitch is a different story, thats nearly unblockable and literally "breaks" the game. Boo dekes may make you angry, just as SHL with falco in melee is really good, as well as falco's d-air, fox's shine and so on...boo dekes may be great, but they arent broken...i dont mind when people use them


boo dekes are not cheating, just because you dont know how to counter them doesnt give you the right to to take away a tactic of another person just to make the game easier for you.

and btw boo dekes are deliberate by the designers, as are all tricks, (boswer194 emailed the designers and they confirmed this)

if a move is counterable then it is not cheating, and boo deke is perfectly counterable if you know how to defend properly

if a player just wants to give it to his boo every time and run the field and deke to score, then thats ok, its your fault for not countering it, and in fact if he tries to run the entire field, its not the difficult to counter, just dont commit to the tackle too quickly, and wait for him to get too close, or if he moves away from your defender just switch to another player and hit him, i learnt this by repeatedly facing a boo spammer and eventually i continually gained possession off his free runs

the only forms of cheating are boo glitching and keeper camping, as they truly break the game, everything else is perfectly counterable and if you lack the ability to do so then you dont have the right to take away the skill of better players by saying they are cheating.


first of all, you can't goalie camp in a competitive match because the rules will have a set number of goals on.

second, how is boo deke even considered a part of the metagame? how is this improving or how has it even been considered to be a part of it?

Also, you still haven't answered my question from previous post


well i wouldnt care someone tried to boo deke all 7 goals..that would be really predictable and work in my favour, and i wouldn call myself an elite player

if your playing a competitive match and someone scores 7 dekes against you, it may frustrate you and may be less fun for you, but its a competitive match, just because you cant counter it doesnt mean he doesnt have the right to do it

if i suck at defending shooters, do i have the right to tell them to stop doing it?

and with regards to making the game better, any trick (not cheat) makes the game better, because it creates a whole new method of attack, and the opposition needs to learn how to defend it, its dynamics like this that have expanded the game and establish the elite from the amatuer.

and btw it has nothing to do with skill, there are 2 general ways to score a boo deke, either give it to boo and run th entire field, or if it luckily breaks to boo with a clear run to goal

if the player just runs the entire field with boo, then you had considerable opportunity to counter it, if you cant counter it that doesnt make it unfair, thats just a skill you lack as a player, i can regularly counter boo runs, and im not elite, therefore for a boo run to be scored against me it would have a taken a degree of skill to get past my defense

if breaks to boo luckily with a clear run to goal, you will claim it took no skill, but if the same thing happened with a white ball to dk or dry bones, it wouldntv taken skil lto score, yet you would have still done it

and anyway skill required has nothing to do with it, in competitive gaming, the idea is to win fairly, and it has been established that if it is counterable then it is not cheating, and boo deke is counterable therefore it is fair, its just another tactic to be learnt to be used and countered.


^ true that was the part i really didn't agree with boo deking being a part of the meta game.

If that was true then i would have to be ready constantly for someone to boo deke on me and often if you are to play decent players on ranked they will boo deke on me and i will not be ready for it. The reason why i dont like that is not im whining about more work to guard its that it basically gives boo a character that has been called the most overpowered character in the game time and time again even more power.

It would give me almost no reason to even bother using toad. Also it makes 3 boo teams even more useful.

Although im not saying boo dekes should or ever will be banned but if u do it i will call u a ***** and will do my best to avoid playing u and make u try to make ur life miserable.

O yea and this is coming from a former boo deke spammer lol


Aight, umm.. first off, Yes, boo deke makes boo stronger/better. Does that matter? Every game with different characters inherently have characters that are better than others. This doesn't stop people from playing worse characters. the bo/toad thing is starting to become tighter lol. Regardless, they have different playstyles. People are gonna use Toad, and people are gonna use boo. It doesn't matter which one is better.

Secondly, I thought i explained the boo deke being part of the metagame already. I guess i worded it noobishly, lol. umm . . . Basically, it's an option to score.. you must know how to block it /slash/ be ready to block it at all times, just like you hafta be ready to block any other method of scoring at all times. The only reason to ban it would be to stop making it necessary to be ready for it. And that reason is illegitimate- not meriting a ban at all.

In MSC, you can choose to boo deke to score, or any other method (shoot, self pass, wall tech, etc). . . boo deke may be the easiest to do (even though all of em are easy to do consistently with practice) but it adds a little bit more variety instead of never doing it. .

Let's see.. guess i can try a comparison to another game... Let's go with melee Razz
Boo deke goal is to MSC as. . . standing on the edge and doing a Dsmash to edgeguard is to SSBM. . .

In MSC, you can choose to boo deke to score, or any other method (shoot, self pass, wall tech, etc). . . boo deke may be the easiest to do (even though all of em are easy to do consistently with practice) but it adds a little bit more variety instead of never doing it. . .

In Melee, you can choose to stand on the edge and do a basic smash attack to edgeguard, or you can choose to have a little air -mindgame fight, to edgehog/edgeguard the opponent in a flashier way. Nonetheless, that basic smash attack edgeguarding is another option hat can be used to throw in mindgames.. as in, to keep the opponent guessing.

Of course, im assuming you play melee... if not. lets try directly defining some of the word "Metagame"
In this case, im using metagame to include every viable tactic that ISNT "broken" (like the boo goalie glitch) . . . every player who picks boo has the option to attempt a boo deke goal, when given the chance. . . it can be used, and is kept in mind throughout a match at high level of play, along with every other method of scoring.
I really don't see how it's NOT part of the metagame.

It's not that the boo deke goal is easy to do- but that it looks easy, simple, and nooby. those two aren't the same :I


and your not a tool for spamming it, in a competitive match if i find that you cant counter boo runs, then naturally i would continuely target your weakness, otherwise i wouldnt be competitive, people have to accept its just another method of scoring, and of course sometimes those goals will be scored 'unfairly', but heaps of goals in msc are scored unfairly,

if im spamming a tactic which doesnt brake the game, that is continuously getting me goals because you cant counter it, why should i stop doing it? to make it easier for them? it defeats the entire purpose of being competitive

your not a tool for spamming a legitmate tactic if it works well, that logic is awful


For Melee, those edgeguards etc can be done by all characters. Boo deke is only for Boo.

Anyway, everyone has different mentalities when it comes to video games. I play to win but with my own style.

Regardless, I stand by what I say.

It's sad. You are all okay with a player who will Boo deke most if not all his/her goals.

So you would all be fine with a player who uses Wally/DK, Boo, Boo, DB and does everything a trickster/shooter does ALONG with Boo dekes? Insane.


of course id be abit worried coming up against a dk/wally 2boo db team, but id welcome the challenge, its not like its completely unfair

those are good teams, but they are not game-breaking teams

if you use dk, you cant do insta chips, and if you use wally, you dont have a shooter, both are useful options that the team lacks,

also, both those teams lack a hopper (which at times can be more of a threat than boo, depends on your style and how good you are at hopping the keeper) and the balanced-player trickshot (which i score many goals off with shy guy at the back), both which are useful in certain situations

iv versed lesser players with similar teams to those, and i always beat them because i was the better player, the same goes for teams with 3 boos, so in the end unless your boo glitching or keeper camping(if your playing ranked) it will always come down to skill

btw, there are also advantages in not using those players, for example, you verse boos so often you can often pick out pretty quickly what theyre tryna do, but if you master uncommon players, opposition wont know how to read them, perfect example is my shy guy at the back, no one knows really how to counter him because no one knows what il do with him, and then they get surprised when i score from halfway.

back to boo dekes, a boo deke may not take skill(sometimes it does), but that doenst mean the player doesnt have skill

a players ability isnt measured by the amount of skill required to do the moves they score wth, its based on their team selection, quick-decision making, muscle reflex, defending (which isnt just about smashing any1 in sight), tactics they employ in various situations, and if theyre tricksters the execution of their tricks,

so if someone as a weakness to boo deke goals and cant counter them, naturally i would continually use it, because thats what being competitive is being about, winning fairly, the execution of the goal may not always be hard, but the tactic of spamming it is a good one, and the decision to do that tactics in effective situations makes me a better player, and the fact that the opposition cant counter it makes him a lesser player he may be a better trickster, defender, and shooter than me, but in a competitive match if he cant counter my boo deke spamming then i have won the tactical battle and therefore im the better player (as twisted as that sounds, its the reality.


well maybe you should read the posts and you may realise that your wrong, a 3 boo team would be nothing against a good player with a goof defense, because it would be the most predicatble and therefore counterable tactic. you seem to think that a 3 boo team breaks the game, i proved before (if you read the posts) that no team breaks the game, and that every character and team has weaknesses

you seem to think that a 3 boo team is unfair, so i assume your one of those people who cant counter it very well, thats not unfair, thats just a weakness you have as a player

and btw, if a 3 boo team is bordering on breaking the game, why dont all the elite players use it? infact how many elite players actually use 3 boos? none that iv seen, why dont they? because its not that good, its only effective on those players who complain about it because they cant counter it consistently


haha well you bring up some valid points dre.

however, it still comes down to what I'm talking about.

When I said DK/Wally 2 Boos/DB (the trite teams everyone uses), i meant the IDEAL team.

I am talking about the player who is really good. The player who has both shooting and tricking in the team and has excellent defense. Now that I've established that, now I want to talk about Boo dekes. Since they are so simple to do, this said player will use them intelligently, not like stupid people on ranked. This person will mindgame the opponent and score that Boo deke, and will fake out the opponent by going for a serve it something when in reality he tricks you and goes for the deke.

And I'm really surprised you think this is a 'challenge'. There is only a challenge if your opponent actually has skill. Boo dekes are ridiculously simple to do and can be done with the help of mostly any item.

Boo dekes are not competitive. By scoring a goal using this method, you are just showing how you are incapable of doing a trick that is harder/more skillful to do.

If you want to play to win, that's fine. But how can you yourself feel like you just pulled off a worthy goal? Did you feel like you even won the match? (Just a side comment)

If you can do a boo deke, you can do a trick in its place. Simple as that.

Tiger ArmyND

That's horrible logic. . . A trickster can obviously do tricks.. so how is doing a boo deke goal showing that he can't do tricks? <_<
It just means they opted for that method of scoring.
The scenario you stated.. when a god player goes up and looks like he's gonna attempt a serve it in, but switches to a boo deke goal, is the same situation with other "coinciding tricks".. it's faking out the opponent. this is a basic "mindgame" in many if not all competetive games <_<

wow i cant believe master feels this way...master u talked about how a 2 boo and db team can have solid defense, there is still a downside though, you may not see it this way, but its true...

Boos have little intercepting ability (compared to dry bones) in the sense that they have trouble intercepting ground passes(terrible slide). in order to do good against boos, all you have to do is utilize ground passes and off-screen passes...boos cant do much against that, the only difference is whether YOU can get a trick past a boo, which is easier than getting a trick past a db.

DB has great slide and tackle, he can block tricks better than boo, but more than that, he can intercept passes better and give u less possesions, the difference is his offense, most people rely on mini-circles and teleports, but DB has more than this, people are just so used to boo, that no1 masters him...thats why everyone likes boo so much (same goes for toad)

A DB has better defense than a boo, u might disagree because u play too much boo...get some db experience noobcake lol

btw boo dekes ARE legitimate...too many casuals


lol first of all im not a noobcake.

and what does DB have to do with anything? I'm speaking of the ideal team/player. This is regardless of the team structure.

Everyone can think Boo dekes are legit, but I still stand by what I say.

And FYI i've always been this way EEF. i dont even trick, doesn't that make sense? lul
It's a matter of personal preference I guess


xdragon what you are saying is that its unfair to use good tactics, im sorry but for competitive gaming that logic is terrible
dk/wally 2 boos and a db is not the IDEAL team, there is no ideal team, theyre just very good teams, and as iameef mentioned above every team has weaknesses
you say that boo spammers have no skill, but i think you misunderstand what consititutes skill in this game, its not the difficulty of your tricks, its mostly tactics and the execution of your tricks,
you claim its unfair to use those teams above and spam boo dekes, thats not unfair, thats just good tactics(if they cant counter it), although there is luck involved. games are won and lost through tactics, deciding when to do what when, and also the execution of tricks
in a competitive game, if someone uses 3 boos and spams because i cant counter it, then yes perhaps it doesnt take much skill to score the goal, but thats not what makes him a good player, he has beaten me tactically and therefore he is the better player.
its true that in some circumstances there is nothing you can do to block boo dekes, but the same goes for all goals,
the same thing applies with shooting, if you charge the ball at the back with boo, unless i actually move my player to where boo is passing it, when boo passes it forward its luck whether my player is marking the receiver tightly or not, if the receiver shoots and scores, there wasnt much could do about that, but why dont 'noobs' complain about that, because they do it too
people who have issues with it are those you cant counter it regularly, and you find alot of the time on these forums that if there is something lesser players cant counter they try and get rid of it to make the game easier for them
i didnt say they were casuals, they just want to have 1 less thing to counter so the game is easier for them
first someone complained about 3 boo teams and spamming deke, that poster spoke of it as unfair, then obivously that person cant counter boo dekes well, so he wants to make the game easier for him
xdragon was saying that its not fair if someone uses wally/dk, 2 boos and db, and then uses mindgames to pull of boo dekes, xdragon also admitted he was a shooter
xdragon therefore believes people shouldn use good tactics
no offense but people like them are just trying to take away what makes elite players better than them, to make it easier for them competitively
tricks, midgames, and good team selections are what make the game competitve, and make players better than other players, and these people are tryna take that away


Well to defend master he never said doing tricks was a bad tactic he's only said that he hates boo dekes its been documented that he thinks tricks are a tactic that makes msc better

There are 2 things with boo dekes that just get on my nerves

First thing is a smart player who is good with items will easily find not wide open goals but just open enough to get off the deke where if u used a typical trick there is a chance they will block it.

The other is the incredible fake out ability it givess you a simple circle move that is almost impossible to guard.


xdragon was saying that its not fair if someone uses wally/dk, 2 boos and db, and then uses mindgames to pull of boo dekes, xdragon also admitted he was a shooter

xdragon therefore believes people shouldn use good tactics"

I never said it was not fair to use wally/dk, 2 boo, and DB.

I also never said it was fair to use mindgames.

You think boo deke is considered a good tactic? LOL

Insta chips are an entirely different story though

And actually Batman, that's what I'm talking about. This is the player I'm referring to. The one who does those 2 things and plays that ideal defense and offense.

And @ dre, you're talking about 3 boo teams when that's a different situation. What if you are playing, and some of your boo dekes get blocked, and some don't. will you continue to do it? yes you will, even though you say that you will continue to 'spam' boo deke because the opponent cannot counter it. Well actually, the opponent has countered your boo deke yet you will continue to do it. why? because it is ridiculously simply to do and therefore doesn't require skill

i agree MSC and most competitive games require skill, mindgames, and offense/defense, and team selection.

for example, if you win by spamming boo deke, and i win by doing tricking and shooting, e.g. doing things that actually require skill, then i'm the better player.

boo dekes arent 'tactical', it's pathetic


master obviously boo dekes take little skill, but wtf, so does every single other trick in the game (exception of z-chips and death opts)

Muscle memory IS NOT SKILL, it's just another series of buttons that u need to hit, all it is is hitting the buttons in that series over and over until ur muscle memory becomes accustomed to it...If ur gonna tell me that self-passes take more skill than boo dekes, then i'm gonna vomit all over my carpet and wipe it up with my fist

Boo deke is just another option, the skill comes in with mindgames, because to be honest, technical skill is almost non-existant in msc. everything is pretty simple to do, even the tricks; just because it looks cooler doesnt mean its more skill....thats riciculous..."oh wow but tricks take more skill because u hafta hit more buttons" <------terrible

This game can be played at metagame with little technical skill, mindgames are the dominant factor ( knowledge[of the game] is the other factor and is masterable after playing the game for about a week)

1 more thing i'd like to point out, you guys complain about lucky passes up front for boo dekes, well the only reason they can do that is because they have high passing ability in the back and because u have low sliding ability in ur defense, it's not that they have luck, it's that YOU are too reliant on your stupid off-screen passes to use a db's in the back and block some of those lucky passes


Boo dekes and Instachips are just fine. Only thing that gets kinda lame is when they circle around all game looking for a boo deke or midcourt chip. Either that or they insta every time, which I don't mind at all, but it kinda ruins the purpose of the Instachip in the first place. I insta only because it's a good surprise technique, even those most spammers can make everyone ready to guard it at any time, despite individual tendencies.


xdragon you still misunderstand what constitues skill in this game, its not the way you score, its how many you can score and block
eef was right on the money with what he said, there is hardly any technical skill in this game, once you learn a trick and it registers in your muscle memory its fairly easy to do, although you will still mess it up at times, this game is all about tactics and quick decision making
and btw boo spamming is a good tactic if its going to get you more goals than other tactics, if its not going to get alot of goals, then obviously its not a good tactic
you think you can only be a good player if you score in skillful ways, so what if i verse someone that can do every single trick in the game, but couldnt counter anything, had a crap team, sucked at mindgames and getting openings, had slow thinking, and never used items correctly, are you saying hes a better player than me even though i beat him 8 nil?
and btw xdragon your a shooter, and everyone knows that scoring shots is mostly down to luck, even most of the set-up play comes down to luck on whether your teammates happen to be open or whether your opponent can defend or not; it has nothing to do with your own ablity,
therefore according to your own beliefs arent you therefore pathetic too for using such a luck-based tactic?
now hang on im not sledging shooters, there is skill to being a shooter, its just not the shooting itself (unless your doing triangles), im a trickster and there are many shooters out there that could wallop me
but what xdragon is saying is that your a crap player if you dont score in skillful ways, but shooting isnt skillfull, effective, but not skillful
so if i verse arbok or master or some other elite player, and he wins 1 nil off a boo deke, are you saying hes crap?
xdragon implies, that if you get clear run to goal with boo you shouldn deke with boo, but what if a white ball falls to dk or db, does that mean you shouldn score it because it takes no skill? what if you didnt earn the charge on the ball? you cant claim it took skill to charge the ball then, plus theres no skill in charging it with boo anyway
people are complaining about using items for boos deke, well its their fault for fouling them or letting them get off a charged shot
xdragon its not about how hard the goal is to score, its how many chances you can create and prevent, thats what determines a players ability
and xdragon i dont spam it, i dont just give it to him and run the field, because against a half decent team i know i would almost always get countered, sure i may score 1 or 2 goals a game like that, but i know its more economic to employ other tactics
if boo dekes were so unfair, wouldn everyone spam them? no, because its only situational, just like every other trick and shot
and if spamming was so unfair everyone would be using 3 boos, but theyre not
you cant complain that it takes no skill, because the same goes for any other goal, and trick skill isnt what constitutes a players skill, and you cant say its unfair, because its not broken
so im sorry but how is this even debatable anymore
sure spammers may annoy you, id be annoyed too if i kept conceding dekes, but id be annoyed at myself for not countering them, not the spammer


rofl guys when master said a boo deke required no skill he didnt mean it was easy to play if there was no defense he meant it as if they require little skill to set up which is true


yeah but batman even if thats what master means, its not always easy to get boo open
most people who have a boo in their team would admit that most of their goals in a game arent scored off boo dekes, because theyre not that easy to set up, theyre situational, like every other goal in msc
again i refer to my old point, if i had a white ball, and had both dk and boo open in the opposition half, if i give it to boo and run to the keeper and time my deke and shot correctly to score, im looked down upon, but if i pass it to dk, and just press a button and score, thats ok
and assuming they are easy to set up, wouldnt that make it the more reason the use it? in a game where the sole purpose is to win why should i bother go for a death lob when there is an opening for boo

The main problem with the boo deke is all you have to do is get close and 9/10 you will score........ I have hit the post more times on a wide open dk quick pick shot then you will miss with a boo deke. Don't get me wrong the boo deke has its place, but when it is your one and only offensive move that is GEHY not to mention boring. An example would be if you steel the ball right next to the keeper and he is coming after you and you instantly turn it into a deke and score that took some sort of skill. Now if you just keep dodging, circling and passing till you find an opening with the sole intention of doing a boo deke that is pretty lame. You may say "but it takes SKILL to do that".......NO IT DOESN'T!!! Skill is me dodging your wally with my DK and doing a center serve it in!


I gotta admit that post made me laugh tard.

eef shhhh idc what u think Razz

as for dre think about it its not hard to get a ball to boo and drive the field and just get close enough to the goal to score thats just easy and requires no use of skill to set up which in my mind is equivalant to a boo glitch is annoyance.

You know what i remember back when i boo deked? Everyone getting POed at me for doing it. It's and easy tactic and truly ticks people off. Just the fact that it gets the majority of the community mad would make me not want to do it yet alone its a move that is so easy to set up


bat man a metagame exists now, peeps like wii tard and ju have mastered the game, and i'm sure boo dekes wouldnt be a problem anymore NO MATTER WHO USES THEM

Honestly guys, boo deke is just as easy to set up and just as easy to do as almost every trick in the game, this excuse for why the boo deke is dumb is just terrible, if ur gonna say that, then please, just dont even bother posting


eef you say to just not even bother posting if were just going to say its to easy to set up. Well then prove to us it is equally hard to set up then other moves instead of just shuning us from posting about what is obviously the major problem in your argument

As for me i will continue to prove my point instead of just saying it is what i say it is.

The boo deke is the only move that if your any where near the goalie at any angle can do it and score a goal it doesnt matter if the goalie is super far out from the goal or if he is on top of which can screw up moves that require "skill" to set up.

It is also the only move that can be done off a dime from a turn around no matter what spot of the field you are in.

The last thing this move provides that makes it easier to set up then any move in the game is that even if there is a player near the goal mashing Z+A then it wont give crap because they will just shoot it rite through. Yea you can give the the argument that you can take them out as they are coming through or OOOHHHHH you need to just play tighter defense well people that have truly mastered boo deking will still score on you. This applys with the items i was talking about earlier


Sup MSC community, I'm [wt]Julien, i use mostly tricks to score but if i want to have an opportunity to do them, i need to understand the whole shooting tactic perfectly. Sometimes, the only way to score on the play is to use a shooting tactic even with a team of short range shooters like the one I use mainly.

Here is what i think, my opinion. I explain the way i took to conclude boo deke is a legal, fair, recommendable tactic to use in the metagame. (you may disagree with everything even the basis, i wont think you're a noob as you don't think i am one and as we all are free thinkers)

If i came to those conclusions, it is because i strongly believe and consider there is NO LUCK INVOLVED IN MSC once both players has reached the METAGAME : when both players have mastered every aspect of the game. I also strongly believe MSC is a PERFECT GAME (even with the controversy surrounding the Boo glitch which i could write another full page about) as all the characters are similarly BALANCED.

I consider that the square initially formed by the four players in a team is the mirror of your Kritter. If one player moves, kritter will react differently to a shot from your opponent aimed at the corner associated to that player. The association (player/corner) is made depending of the first direction taken at the draw and beggining of plays, and is also influenced by team rotations made whenever by players during the game (ex:bringing captain at def...etc.).

The setting (made by the game itself) for the beginning of a play (right after someone's goal) is influenced by the last thing that has been done by both players, where and how did it ended up scoring (To approve my statement : I think the majority of you has experienced the disability to block an insta chip because you didn't start the play with the player you needed to block the insta chip; **starting with winger instead of captain**).

Once you accepted what i just considered as facts, the tactics have a role. To counter a shooting tactic, you have to place your defence always ahead of the offensive player, but not too far ahead because of the trick opportunities that will be offered to the offensive player. And no need to mention that hitting right before offensive player shoots is the only way to stop the shot (putting aside having the ball to hit your own player, which can be handicaping or be qualified of procrastination as you just give another shot, possibly an item shot, to your opponent).

When both players (offense/defense) are conscious of that, dekes come in play. Everyone knows how to use dekes when you know you'll get hit before shooting. The level after this, is to fake a hit and jus come close to shooter and wait till he dekes and then hit or slide.

And.... The next level, after this, is, as the shooter (no matter his range) is to abuse of the knowledge that the player will fake a hit then wait. There, you get a whole bunch of opportunities: chips, passes and even a item shot. As a playmaker, youre better not to pass, because, if the opponent is in front of you and is waiting, he will probably slide at the same moment you'll pass and he will get the ball. As he is standing in front of you, his other sidekicks are standing right in front of their respective offensive players, so it makes passes risky.

Yes eef msc does have a meta game that i love. Well the boo deke throws off the balance. Oh and people will still get PO'ed if you boo deke on them that hasnt changed

As the offensive player, it would be a great opportunity to chip the ball, or just move with it to another spot thinking about a trick, skill shot or simply another shot. If you chose a trick, your opponent will notice it and will do the needed work to stop it, HERE is where the dekes you want to hear about if you clicked on this topic are concerned (lol) (lets call them offensive dekes: dekes used to go behind the goalie for a goal). If your opponent is showing he is anticipating a serve it *w/e* (that includes self pass and other close to goalie basic tricks), he will go very close to his own goalie and will wait for the right moment to press A,B or Z+A to intercept the ball in mid air (lets put aside 360 degrees rotations before a trick because it changes the possibilities to intercept in mid air: that will be for another topic on the need to hit instead of intercept).

Now that you know that your opponent is waiting for your serve it w/e, you get new POSSIBILITIES : passes, moves, other tricks AND THE FAMOUS TROUGH GOALIE DEKES followed by shots, passes, or chips(at this point of my explanation, I proved it required a certain LEVEL OF SKILL to think about using them in the metagame). As they are POSSIBILITIES, they are STOPPABLE (by a hit, an interception of the chip, a slide or even by getting your defensive player shot in the face behind his own goalie, but thats godly and quite rare).

As an answer to anyone who would tell me that it doesnt SHOW ANY SKILL TO USE THESE DEKES, i would totally agree. It doesnt show any skill to use boo deke, toads deke, Wally/Daisy teleport as we are in the metagame. But I give myself the permission to add to this that it doesnt show any skill to use tricks (every tricks), shooting tactics and every tactics, once again, as we are in the metagame. In the metagame, a way to set a goal can be compared to series of games of ROCK/PAPER/SCISSOR, as it isn't only a luck relying game: you can guess what the other has in mind after what had just happened.

As a cherry on the top, i also add that i think the boo deke trough goalie is a very irritating possibility of this game, but that's only worth for me as it is an opinion and not a fact about the fairness of this game.

Dre 89

batman you said that its unfair that people who truly mastered the deke score, but as you said, TRULY MASTERED, that proves that it requires some level of thought, and that not everyone can score continuously off it.
there are 3 general ways a boo deke goal comes about 1.he runs the field 2.he is set up by teammates 3. gets a lucky breakaway or item use
1. if he runs the field, it was possible to easily counter, if he used items, it was your fault he got those items, and items can be those in several situations to ensure goals, not just boo dekes
2. if he is set up by teammates, then there was a degree of thought required, people will say that its easier to get boo open for a deke than for other scoring methods, but boo isnt always the easiest to set up, if you have a white ball, not only does boo have to be open, but he has to be open relatively close to goal or in a place where his path isnt impeded, whereas dk only needs to be somewhere in the oppositon half to score. or db at the right distance regardless whether there are people impeding his path,
people claim its too easy to set up, but really then whenever you have open players you would always give it to boo, but good players dont, because often other teammates are in better positions for their own goalscoring methods
3. if he gets a lucky breakaway or items, you cant complain about this, this isnt the only type of goal where luck or items can play a huge factor


In my last letter, I claimed that A Boo deke exhibits bad sportsmanship, and that claim is even more true now. The following text regards my complaints of recent days against A Boo deke and its subtle but bloody-minded attempts to provide the pretext for police-state measures. We must enlighten the mind of Man and improve him as a rational, moral, and social being. This call to action begins with you. You must be the first to protect the interests of the general public against the greed and unreason of hotheaded, drossy tightwads. You must be the one to shape a world of dignity and harmony, a world of justice, solidarity, liberty, and prosperity. And you must inform your fellow man that some of A Boo deke's quips raise important questions about future social interactions and their relationship to civil liberties. Of course, this sounds simple, but in reality, the real issue is simple: My task—our task—is to counteract the subtle, but pervasive, social message that says that the federal government should take more and more of our hard-earned money and more and more of our hard-won rights.

A Boo deke says that the best way to reduce cognitive dissonance and restore homeostasis to one's psyche is to force me to undergo "treatment" to cure my "problem". That's its unvarying story, and it's a lie: an extremely crude and besotted lie. Unfortunately, it's a lie that is accepted unquestioningly, uncritically, by A Boo deke's faithfuls. You've never heard A Boo deke announce that it plans to cultivate an unhealthy sense of victimhood? Well, A Boo deke has repeatedly enunciated such a plan but in its typically convoluted way.

I, not being one of the many libidinous madmen of this world, want to live my life as I see fit. I can't do that while A Boo deke still has the ability to contaminate clear thinking with its contumelious, brassbound solutions. I can unmistakably suggest how A Boo deke ought to behave. Ultimately, however, the burden of acting with moral rectitude lies with A Boo deke itself. And there you have it. I am inwardly repelled by the pettifogging phraseology of A Boo deke's credos and the snappish style in which they are expressed.
This is a letter of love and peace; I will not lash out against anyone, and I will not use specific names of individuals or organizations that fuel the censorship-and-intolerance crowd. That said, let me merely point out that a Boo deke's cankered bons mots cater to the lowest common denominator. Wait! Before you dismiss me as wily, hear me out.

We find among narrow and uneducated minds the belief that all minorities are poor, stupid ghetto trash. This belief is due to a basic confusion that can be cleared up simply by stating that a Boo deke is not just stinking. It is unbelievably, astronomically stinking. The erroneous things a Boo deke says about me are sometimes entertaining, oftentimes sad, and frequently totally rotten. That's just a fancy way of saying that a Boo deke's main regret is that it didn't exist in the early Soviet Union, where it could have joined the Cheka and organized mass shootings of dissidents in the cellars of the secret police. (Yes, a Boo deke is notorious for trying to encumber the religious idea with too many things of a purely earthly nature and thus bring religion into a totally unnecessary conflict with science, but that's an entirely different story.)

A Boo deke likes reinterpretations of historic events that instill a general ennui. Could there be a conflict of interest there? If you were to ask me, I'd say that inasmuch as I disagree with its accusations and find its ad hominem attacks offensive, I am happy to meet its speech with more speech and, if necessary, continue this discussion until the truth shines. Help me take personal action and unite rich and poor, young and old. Join your hands with mine in this, the greatest cause of our time.


Hi 73h_1337,

I wrote this post especially for you, because i want to know if you are serious in the posts you made on this topic. Considering that French is my main language, i found a meaning for every words youve chosen (even ennui/bons mots). I like the way you write because it is close to what i conside litterate. You know how to chose the right words to express your toughts, which is worthy in a discussion or even debate like the one were in right now (about Boo deke lol). I surpised myself to be able to write as much as I did (talking about my essay lol) about a ''small'' part of the great (great is a subjective qualificative) MSC. The only thing i give myself the permission to criticize about your posts is the lack of objectivity you showed trough your writtings. As opposite to my essay, you tend to use subjectivity through your argumentation, which I consider innapropriate in this situation.


''You must be the first to protect the interests of the general public against the greed and unreason of hotheaded, drossy tightwads. You must be the one to shape a world of dignity and harmony, a world of justice, solidarity, liberty, and prosperity.''

''We must enlighten the mind of Man and improve him as a rational, moral, and social being.''

---73h_1337 Posted 2/13/2009 7:18:49 PM

Those quotes makes me think you are trying to impose a way of thinking, a set of values.Subjectivity. You may have witten that because of my reference to; There is no luck involved in msc. I would defend myself against a subjectivity accusation, even if it isn't the main point, by underlining the fact that MSC is a program and its finality is to declare a winner.

Any tactic that is considered as an exploit of the game isn't because it is an exploit of your opponent. MSC is a mindgame and boo deke is a part of it.

By the way, if you were joking (because i'm not quite sure yet) when you wrote posts in this topic, i take it easy and enjoy this kind of humor.

Waiting for an answer, and willing to exchange friend codes (will be posted on next letter), sincerly,
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Julien MSC


Posts : 21
Join date : 2012-04-09

PostSubject: Letters from NLG   Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:24 am

Here is a copy paste of a conversation between Arbok, me and Next level games about fairness in MSC. These were emails sent in 2009.


Hi Developpers of Mario Strikers Charged,

I am addicted to your game more than i have ever been for a substance or a piece of material. I simply love the fairness i find into it. Im a moderator on a website called MSCBay, a chatroom where online wii players can exchange friend codes and chat while playing Mario Strikers Charged.

I am having online debates on websites including GameFAQs and MSCBay's forums with people about how the luck is involved in the game.

I understand that the team choice is an important part of the game, but I personnaly think there is no luck involved in the game when both opponents are fully mastering every aspects (shooting, tricks (goals using the button Z)). At this level of gaming (the Next Level, hahaha, nice name for the makers of this game), which i am at since about 1 year (i own the game since it came out in Canada), every goal seems to be situational, requiring series of precisely timed actions. I think I really deserve a goal when I score and I feel like I know when my opponent will shoot at the right corner and will hit the pin.

I am writing to you today because i want to learn more about the physic, dynamic link between players(characters) and Kritter(the goaltender). Is there any kind of luck or randomisation in the programming of this game, or are the players activating somekind of switches that make a certain way of scoring a possibility? Are the characters perfectly balanced (Waluigi=Daisy? even if Waluigi can intercept his own chips made with button Z?)?

I would say Mario Strikers Charged is a perfect game, what would you say of your own game? Have you found glitches? When you deke with Boo on your own Kritter and Kritter gets the ball from your Boo, i found out the ball gets ''glitchy'' and will score 100% of the shots made with it. Is it a glitch? How is it working?

Thank you for your time, Mario Strikers Charged has a long life and some hardcore fans like me that will play till there is no more Wi-Fi Center Nintendo.

Sincerly Julien.

Answer from NLG

Hey Julien,

We are really glad that you enjoy playing Mario Strikers Charged as much as we do! Some of the Strikers team have seen MSCBay.com Mii’s as Strikers of the Day and have visited the chat room once or twice. MSCBay is great for the Strikers community, albeit a little unfair for other players who aren’t MSCBay members to become Striker of the Day, but oh well.

One of the main things that separates Mario Strikers Charged from any other sports games on any console, is the Ball Charge gameplay mechanic. Simply put, the more charge on the ball when it is shot (B Button) the greater the chance the ball has at going in. This creates a fun, frantic and, most importantly, visible system that determines the chance a shot has at going in (beating Kritter).

There are a few other secondary factors that help determine the success of a shot, but these are not nearly as important as charge level. These are:

· Shooters “Shooting” Attribute and distance away from the goal. - Each players shooting attribute determines what their “sweet” spot on the field is. Offensive and Power characters have the biggest sweet spot, being able to sail a white ball past Kritter from almost anywhere in the offensive end. Balanced characters have a medium range sweet spot, while playmakers and defensive characters have the closest sweet spot.

· Physics of the Shot – Once the shot is released, the Charged Level can only take the shot so far. The speed of the shot, angle of the shot, curve of the shot, height of the shot… basically all things regarding the movement of the shot help determine its success. This is why you will find that taking certain shots on the field with certain angles, etc. proves to be more successful than other shots. This is almost a secondary ‘sweet’ spot that each player has, that is constantly changing based on the charge level.

There are also a few minor things that may affect a shot, such as Kritters positioning, etc.

Also, each skillshot has been designed and created to really enhance your teams chance at scoring – each skill shot usually has an ideal way of pulling it off that will result in a goal, or if not a goal, then a really good scoring chance.

Now, keep in mind all of this has to do with Shots using the B Button. Anything using the Z button is really a trick shot, and will use physics and Kritters positioning to determine if the ball will go in. The Strikers Charged community has really brought Trick Shots using the Z button to a whole new level. During the development of Strikers we always believed that anything that took ‘skill’ (timing, field position, special circumstance) was fair game, and required the defending player to learn and counter certain trick shots.

The Boo ‘glitch’ you explained – where you deke into your own goalie, pass it out and have a 100% success rate seems a little bit iffy. I personally haven’t seen this done yet so I can’t really comment on it. Just run it through the ‘skill’ questions. (Does it require timing, field positions or a special circumstance? Can it be countered by blocking the shot, intercepting the pass? )

Keep enjoying the game and keep going strong with MSCBay, it’s really great to have a place for the community to get together and talk about Strikers!

-Strikers Dev Team

Julien's second email: ABOUT LUCK, ITEMS AND GLITCHES

-NLG's answer is put trought the e-mail between the stars, because it is 1 question after the other-

Hi Strikers Dev Team, it is Julien from MSCBay.com, once again

I am glad you wrote me back as fast as you did last time I wrote you. You answered to my questions about physic and dynamic of the shots, thank you. Still, I need enlightment about how the luck is involved in the game. Here are questions i would like you to answer :

1. ''What makes a shot at the beginning of a play (after the opponent scores) go in?'', like when the game starts and DK (example) charges a bit and shoot.

Is it a probability? (Like a percentage%?), is it linked to items? (their strenght?, type?, the number in the stash?), is it linked to how the opponent starts the play (moving?, tackling?, standing?, using or not items?), is it linked to the game's past? (what happened to both players right before the goal?, or even before?). Is the game's physic, dynamic conserving the same ''vectors'' it was applying on Characters at the end of the previous play? Why isn't that first shot always going in? (I want a precise answer please)

Like a Star @ heaven Read back to the e-mail before that I helped explain how shooting work. It is a highly complicated probability combined with physics. Only the best shooters in the game can score off a face-off, and not 100% all the time. Like a Star @ heaven

2. ''What determines which item a player will get?''

Is it linked to any answers suggestions i formulated for Number 1?

Like a Star @ heaven There is a huge algorithm which helps determine power-up a player will get. This is to help people who are getting destroyed get better items. In an even steven game, both players will have the same luck at getting certain items.

Example: If you are blowing a person out, notice how you usually get a ton of mushrooms or bananas? Like a Star @ heaven

3. What influences the character you start with (you doesnt always start with the ''NUMBER ONE'' above your captain) and all of your team's players looking direction at the beginning of a play?

Is it linked to any answer suggestions i formulated for Number 1?

Like a Star @ heaven Nothing? I’m not quite sure what you mean by this, but players looking direction at the beginning of a play is usually related to where the ball is. Like a Star @ heaven

4. A) Concerning the Boo ''Glitch''. Like i said in my previous letter, you can make a 100% chances of scoring when deking with Boo in your own Kritters' direction to give him the ball in his hand. Here is a link to a video made By ARBOK, the owner of MSCBay.com, to show you how to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p6pPyWGl3E. We found two other glitches:

B) When Dry Bones uses his teleport deke with a charged ball and tries to teleport in the opponent's goal (could also be his own goal, both work) and is too close from the goal, his teleport target is the back wall of the goal's net so he gets electrocuted while performing it and Kritter gets the ball. If a long range shooter gets the ball after this has been done, he has a 100% chances of scoring goal from anywhere in the offensive half with any ball charge.

C) The ''Thunder Island Boo glitch'' has been discovered recently, isnt known much, is the easiest to do and the one giving the most glitching liberty (hahaha). To do it, you have to use the Boo deke to fall off the stadium. So, Boo goes near the edge, the closest before he falls and he dekes in direction of the edge and falls off the platform, then the ball rolls back on the stadium's platform and any long range shooter can now shoot from anywhere in the offensive half and get a 100% chances of scoring goal with any ball charge.

Are the 3 phenomenons I described considered ''glitches''? I think so because the ball seems to go through Kritter (trough his hands) which is not like if he missed it. They all are having the same effect as the boo glitch I sent a video for. Please test them and give me a feedback. A lot of people i play with, me also, think these phenomenons make the game really unfair.

Like a Star @ heaven Cool. Good find on all the weird tricks above. Remember the last e-mail I kinda explained our thinking behind tricks vs. glitch.

Tricks can be defended. Be it hitting one of the guys, stealing the ball, using a power-up, etc.

Here’s a good 100% scoring one that you probably know of. If Monty Mole performs a skill shot at the perfect spot on the field he will score 100% of the time. He’ll dig down and pop up hitting the goalie into the net and scoring a goal.

Glitches can’t be defended. From all your described tricks ‘glitches’ above, they all seem to be able to be defended easily by proper defensive positioning.

Like everything, players will find what they think are cheap tricks/glitches – remember when people were complaining about hammer spammers, or boo dekes? Well after the initial stage of figuring out one of the tricks and abusing it, people begin to formulate plans to counter the tricks people are using. Once people learn how to counter/defend against them they then become just a piece of the overall pie. A move that is best used when a certain circumstance presents itself. It’s the constant ebb and flow of learning and mastering a game. Like a Star @ heaven

Thank you once again for your precious time and sorry for my grammar, im mainly a French speaker.


Third letter: Arbok's email, followed by their response:

Dear NLG,

I am a devout Mario Strikers Charged player in distress. I am tired of being harassed in online ranked gameplay by these bunches of losers. I want to be able to have a game free of boo glitching, once and for all. ARBOK has mailed you on this subject, and I completely agree with him in terms of the fact that we need a list of causes of glitching. Without them, I am left helpless against people who otherwise would not be skilled.

What frustrates me the most, for not using my real thoughts (pisses me off), about those ‘’weird tricks’’ like you call them for keeping the term ‘’glitches’’ out, is that it is too easy for a good player to reduce himself by using them. It shows that the main game, if you really included them in it, is including a tactic that breaks all the others, annihilates the main function of scoring, putting skills and shooting’s good positioning tactics aside to promote an easy way to score without them. A good player normally uses logic through his skills use and through his shooting positioning and passes combos: that’s what I consider Mario Strikers’ pie to be, and that’s what I like to be served as my favourite meal (hahaha), and that’s what Next Level Games have built the cooking tools for!!! (hahahaha, I abused your own metaphor). Now I think it is time to sharpen your tools, adapt the game by updating it, or (as I know this first option is asked way too late, considering the game is to be updated), I want a concrete plan to work on to counter the ‘’glitchers’’ that are abusing of goalie camping to glitch in online ranked games. Because i think it is impossible to prevent every possible shot form the offensive half at any moment against a good player. It also is impossible to prevent a fast player like boo to access his own goalkeeper while also preventing him to pass, run for a trick, or deke and move around to finally come back to the two other possibilities.

As a co-administrator of what has become the most popular Mario Strikers Charged community in North-America, I get to know a lot of players; I have had more than 150 friends in my separate rosters and even met European and Australian players which I could only talk with. I talked about how the game was popular in their area and they answered me that it was going down on popularity because of the online glitch use and that they (the players interested enough in a game to actually talk about it online with other players) told me that they really hated the glitch possibility and that it was forbidden in the amateur tournaments they were having. I answered them the popularity breakdown was the same in North-America, that it wasn’t only due to the release of other popular games like Brawl and Mario Kart Wii for example. The website Mscbay.com isn’t born to form a group to complain about hammer bros ‘’hammer’’ spammers or even boo deke users through goalie that we all learnt how to counter logically, it is mainly born to welcome players willing to play Mario Strikers in a fair way, unlike what we think the actual ranked games are.

I personally cannot believe that NLG would let this pass as another thing that people just complain about. It's like the boy who cried wolf, except now a different boy is crying wolf and the wolf actually is there. I personally ask that ARBOK and me be mailed at (our personnal emails) and given a list of causes of glitching so we can all try to find a way to counter it. In addition, if we could have a patch that eliminated glitching altogether, that'd be five times as great, but it would certainly put an undue burden on you (at least at the moment, because we don't know what causes glitching or how it really works).


Hi Julien,

Here’s the response that the team sent to Arbok’s last email.

Hi Arbok,

We’ve been very busy at Next Level, but we’ll try to answer your questions one last time.

Okay, so the main thing you guys have been talking about is the ‘glitches’ where you can always score on any shot. You’ve mentioned three ways to do it, and a host of possible reasons why.

Your reasoning behind why they happen all seem very plausible, and shows the intelligence and ability to break down the core systems that makes Mario Strikers tick.

A game is comprised of three main parts. Mechanics, Dynamics, Aesthetics.

Mechanics essentially is the ‘rules’ of how everything works. From the shooting system to the power-up system.

Dynamics is basically how all the different rules works together. How the power-up system interacts with the shooting system, or how a deke might interact with a hitting player, etc.

Aesthetics describes the desirable emotional responses evoked in the player, when they interact with the game.

As a developer we create the games by creating the mechanics, which leads to the dynamics, and are experienced by the aesthetics.

As a player you interact with the game by experiencing the aesthetics first, then interacting with the dynamics, and eventually breaking the dynamics down to learn the rules of individual mechanics. And that is how a player masters the game. They get past the aesthetics stage, learn the dynamics, and eventually breakdown the individual mechanics and how they work.

That is the level you guys are talking about.

When a game is created, we put a lot of energy into tuning, evaluating, and developing interesting mechanics that interact together in meaningful ways. There are so many different systems or mechanics in a game that bloom when they interact with other mechanics to create exciting and fun dynamics. The dynamics of the game can be controlled, somewhat, but there is a ton of emergent design that appears from the way things interact.

For example: The Z Button Chip Goal.

When we created the Z Button, we developed a set of rules on how it would work. Tapping the Z button would chip the ball ahead of you at a certain distance / speed / height, and give the character a slight speed increase for a set period of time. Holding the Z button down and then releasing it would charge up the distance / speed / height up until it hit a maximum value.

Essentially that is the rules that we created. The Mechanics behind it.

The Dynamics come in after. How did this chip ball mechanic interact with other mechanics in the game? What happened when you chipped it off the wall? What happened when you chipped it at the goalie? What happened if you chipped it to another player? The dynamics this simple mechanic creates with the game is huge.

As a developer when you tune and playtest the game, you begin to see the dynamics forming in a certain way. You are able to add new rules to cool dynamics. Like when a chipped ball hits the fence it gets an extra level of charge, or when a chipped ball hits a lava hole it charges fully to white and is bounced up at a certain speed, height, distance.

But all this stuff is just what goes on under the hood. The Z button is experienced from the aesthetic stage by the player first and foremost. They don’t understand the workings behind it, just that it behaves in a certain way when they do certain things.

Anyways, what I’m trying to get at, is there are a lot of different things going on and not everything can be caught. When we were playing the game no one was chipping the ball over the goalies head. We knew it was possible at a very skilled level of play, and easier to do in certain situations, but we weren’t worried about it because put it against our criteria for a glitch, bug, exploit etc. to a defendable trick.

Can the defending player prevent the offensive player from performing said trick?

If the answer was yes, then we moved on. If the answer was no, we balanced or removed the trick.

Now, given the state of the Nintendo Wii and when Strikers was released, we can’t ‘patch’ games like on the xbox 360. If the Boo Glitch Goal is causing the game to become broken at a mastery level of play, then it is up to the community to ban it. The non-existent ball theory – which is pretty cool theory – is the Dynamics of how different systems behave when they interact with each other. They are emergent in the creation of the game, and are themselves not mechanics that were hard coded or scripted. They are emergent dynamics created by how different mechanics work together.

Through different stages of mastery different things have been considered glitches. It seems like the mastery level of the players today is extremely skillful. You guys have broken past the aesthetics and dynamics to look at the mechanics of the game. But just keep in mind, a game is comprised of a bajillion mechanics that interact with each other in different ways.

When you find a glitch, exploit or bug that at first is extremely powerful, I ask you to put it through the test that we would do during development.

Can it be defended?

If it can’t be defended then it should be rebalanced, tuned, etc. Given how the game can’t be patched, at a competitive high level all you can do is to make a gentlemen’s agreement to not use it against each other.

-Strikers Team
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