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 As per Waluigi_Me's request

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the-nintendo-master

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PostSubject: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:50 am

I'll start it then, since you have logged off on me abruptly.


Side advantage does not make or break the game. Wally Me thinks otherwise.


He says " In a game of 2 evenly matched players, the home side will win".
He uses his own empirical evidence to back this, and some logic.

I claim there is much more involved in a match other than side advantage, different 'circumstances'.

By circumstances I simply mean item usage, random loose balls, mindgames and the like.

1) Just because 2 players are evenly matched, does not mean they think the same. This ties in with item usage. If both players have a red shell each, it does not mean both will use it for offense - one might use it for defense or one might use it accidentally out of nervousness/emotions. That is a human factor you must take into account.

2) There is no such thing as ' 2 evenly matched players '. Do you agree Waluigi is superior to Daisy? You cannot have 2 evenly matched players because one captain will always be better than the other; the clear favorite being Waluigi > Daisy, regardless of side. This makes your point moot.

Please debate respectfully.
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coheed&cambria

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:59 am

agreed, not to mention that waluigi has ball priority over the home team, and given that he should be the character the player is controlling most of the time, both defense and offense it evens out home ad somewhat.

any trickster other than wally me will say they want waluigi at away over daisy at home. just saying
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waLuigi me

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:42 am

You are correct in saying that wally > daisy, and yes wally has free ball priority, much similar to home, but waluigi is only one character on a team and as such can only get a chance at his priority ~25% of the time, and even then he only has a 50% chance of actually winning the free ball battle. People prefer wally because of his ability to self pass while I prefer Daisy for the ability to use home, an easy special, a flatter chip, and a less predictable teleport.

Daisy also has some start up patterns that are faster than the waluigi version due to the slide length and delay between the slide and being able to move.

While home is usually not a factor in large skill differentials, if anyone is home against another person in a fairly even match, the home team can just pick apart the away team. GL stopping a home abusive offense, you either have to give them items or a goal. If you give them items, they can cycle, use offensively, etc, and will have a steady stream because that will be your only viable defense.

Most people that defend saying home isn't a big deal tend to be people who play there a lot. It really becomes noticeable after winning so often at home, then switching to away and suddenly becoming unable to score as you normally would.

You are correct in saying home isn't the ONLY factor to winning, but between two evenly matched players, it is the most game changing.
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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:27 pm

For me personally, side advantage doesn't matter at all until you reach Wally in the "top character". Excluding Waluigi, home/away advantage really doesn't exist, but that's just me.
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the-nintendo-master

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:50 am

You said it will make or break the game. That home is advantageous that it would actually determine the outcome of the match.

You said yourself that Waluigi is greater than Daisy. But then you explain why Daisy is better for you at home. Well, you basically described what I said.

Although Waluigi is superior, you still make your Daisy play well. You essentially just proved my "1) Just because 2 players are evenly matched, does not mean they think the same." You play your Daisy differently as do others; what you would do in a given situation, another Daisy would do otherwise.

Waluigi is a better captain at any side, and for that reason, no 2 players can be evenly matched. There are simply better characters than others. And because of this, there is no argument. Your argument assumes 2 players are evenly matched, when that is impossible - you are stating hypotheticals.

As far as home 'abuse', yes that can be annoying. But it can't break the game. You can counter anything in this game (minus Boo glitching). It's just a matter of the individual and overcoming the given situation.

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waLuigi me

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:35 am

I said home advantage CAN be the outcome of the match, not that it consistently does.

Also, for anyone who plays away consistently (especially shooters) as soon as you switch to home, this game suddenly becomes so much easier.

Waluigi is only better than daisy for self pass and priority and that's only if they are the same side. Daisy still has a flatter chip, easier special to score with and a better teleport. Which I would say all of that is the same as self pass at worse, which just leaves priority, which while at home, you get that priority but for ALL of your players, not just one.

I didn't say home advantage breaks the game, I said it ruined the game. The fact that you personally receive roughly half your goals through the side you pick means something. It doesn't mean you're bad, you're not, you're very good, but when you don't get those 3-4 goals a game from the side you pick, you have to start finding other ways to score which CAN be done. It's much harder. It's why most shooters pick home so they can have that crutch. Yes home is a crutch / handicap / anything else you wish to call it to give a better chance at winning.

The problem with this game aside from other ones is that you can't have mirror matches. There is no such thing as a balanced match, although there can be similarly skilled players. These matches are often people who consistently split series. You tell me two people cant be evenly skilled is comical.
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the-nintendo-master

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:02 pm

The game won't allow 2 potentially even players to play. It's not comical; I'm simply stating that the captains and sidekicks won't allow for it, the 'mirror match' as you call it.

You said home is so advantageous that it would actually determine the outcome of the match.

What difference does it make if it is not consistent? According to what you said, it is that big of a deal, warranting consistency.

And it's quite obvious that side advantage negatively affects the game, but you are taking it to another level. I oppose that.

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:19 am

Saying that home advantage can determine the outcome of a game? How is that preposterous? In all honesty, when home is the reason for half of a persons goals how does that not be game changing? When you score half of your goals due to what side you're on, how is that not a problem? Tactics that people do at home don't work at away unless setups for shooters are involved. So if you honestly think that the side isn't a problem then start playing away and prove me wrong against quality players.
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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:16 pm

You're saying that,

1 - it does "determine the outcome of a game"

2- it "CAN be the outcome of the match, not that it consistently does"


First, that is contradictory.

Second, with that logic, every match should be won by home. Obviously this is not the case.

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:00 pm

Your post is true for the fact that home doesn't determine the outcome of every game. Obviously if someone who doesn't know how to play is home, they won't beat someone who is much better than them. That is obvious and since that is your basis for saying home doesn't have the ability to win games, then that is embarrassing. Home is the reason you have been successful at this game TNM. I am still waiting for you to prove me that you are just as strong at away.
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the-nintendo-master

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:57 pm

"Obviously if someone who doesn't know how to play is home, they won't beat someone who is much better than them."

You said we are assuming we are talking about 2 evenly matched players. Why do you keep contradicting yourself?

Congrats to you for using a very old trick in the book: ad hominem. You don't attack the man, you fight the argument. For someone with some maturity I would have never expected this to happen. Since when have you been waiting for me to 'prove myself' at away? Now THAT is comical. I thought the argument was about home being so advantageous it actually affects the outcome? My skill has no bearing on this.

Of course, when I pointed out your flaw you have nothing more to say than attack me. This argument has nothing to do with me. I used your logic against you; even if I sucked in this game, I still have valid points.

You have yet to answer my points in the previous post. If you're willing to continue I'm willing to as well, even after your stunt. If you do not, then I will assume you have conceded.
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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:35 am

That's not true at all. I'm "attacking" you because you're a prime example of how home actually has the ability to determine the outcome.

Also, you're the one actually putting words in my mouth. I didn't say home is the sole reason for a match outcome. I said it was the most important between two evenly matched players. Not saying home wins every time, but home should win the majority.

I said a few posts ago that you should prove me wrong by actually winning the majority of your matches against people at your skill level while being away. You say that the boo glitch is more unfair, when boo glitch is never used and completely controllable. How is that unfair in the slightest (rhetorical because we're not talking about something that has no effect on actual competition). Also, your previous questions took one statement of you putting words in my mouth or misinterpreting what I actually said then stating what I did in fact say.

NEVER did I say home wins every time, I said that home was the MOST important factor in determining an outcome between two evenly matched players.

The only reason the discussion went the way it did is because you have only repeated the same points which have no validation whatsoever because your arguing against something that is a figment of your imagination. I suppose I don't really care your opinion on this matter since I don't even have the ability to play the game, but for someone who ALWAYS plays home, you can't even begin to understand just what you're receiving until you witness it at an extreme level while at away.

The only other reason I've said you specifically is that I've heard multiple complaints (bay and sky) that you are an abusive player of home and that you always pick home, and that reason can't be due to Luigi choice because rarely people pick Luigi, which insists on an ulterior motive. My idea is that you are showing that you are trying to show that home isn't as advantageous as it actually is in hope that people continue to accept away, or to avoid further arguments about ones play style. If that's the reason, then I won't say anything more to preserve that for you.
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the-nintendo-master

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:55 am

No.

You said it would make or break the game. We discussed this on the XAT and I put this in my 1st post. You even said yourself that home advantage has the ability to determine the outcome of the game (in this thread). OBVIOUSLY it is the not the SOLE reason for the outcome of the match (given my circumstances and what not), but you are saying it is enough make the home player win between 2 'evenly matched' players.

That's funny. Now you're saying it's the majority of the time? Now you say that? What constitutes the majority? And for that matter, away DOES HAVE THE ABILITY TO WIN. That is my point. You are saying home is at SUCH an advantage that it can determine the outcome of the match. What I rebutted was obviously that is not the case.

What points did I say that have no validation? Please enlighten me.

Also, why the hell am I involved in this? Once again, I have nothing to do with this. Of course, you volunteer hearsay from Bay and Sky. You don't even play the game, yet you are criticizing me. And it does not even matter simply because MY PLAY STYLE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. We're DEBATING the home advantage. Don't involve me.

What 'ulterior motive' do I have? LOL. This is not the place to defend my honor. I know what I am and am not capable of. You bringing ME into this is quite ridiculous.
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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:29 pm

I'd love to continue this battle of wits with you, but it appears you've run out of ammo.
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waLuigi me

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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:16 pm

Sorry I don't check the forums much anymore since I have no reason to. At this stage it's only your opinion against mine.

There is no way for you to convince me that I'm wrong because I know I am right and there is no way I can convince you you're wrong because you know you're right.

All it is getting to is both taking personal shots (yes your previous posts contained insults as well) and it will only continue because everything has been presented. I've offered ways in which home advantage is game changing while you have attempted the same in defense of it not being advantageous (which I still find dumb) but it's whatever. And since I can't play this game I can't actually play you to show you so I'm talking to a brick wall who is as stubborn as I am.

It's not conceding, it's stopping the convo before it gets out of hand and since everything has been presented nothing else is there to say
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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:23 pm

BM just lost to HaLR and BM was home and it wasn't evn a 7-6 on either game lol!
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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:28 pm

How convenient of a reply.
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PostSubject: Re: As per Waluigi_Me's request   Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:35 pm

I think both sides are partially right because to defend hagfors, home advantage is the deciding factor in SOME game. Note that some does not mean all of them. It most certainly does not cause the home team to win EVERY time though. The word every is a powerful word and needs to be true to use it. And this is where TNM is right. If two "closely" -- I say closely because two players are never evenly matched -- matched players are competing the human element of MSC starts to show. Every game is about momentum, mindgames, skill level and situational luck. Players can never have all of those qualities be the same in every game they play so the deciding factor won't always be home advantage because home advantage would be the factor that swings the game if all of those were exactly the same. All together, home matters but home teams do lose.

@ Necro: HaLR and BM aren't the same levels anymore. At least from the last time I've played both of them, so this doesnt surprise me.

PS: Sorry if I repeated anything already said I only read a few large sides of the arguement.
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